I am glad you got out and are able to tell us what it was really like. People need to know this. I'm sorry you have had so much trauma.
It's disgusting that Barry maintains such a "do no wrong" exterior. Like a fake "kind and gentle" persona, whilewhile rushing aside people's feelings and emotions.
I have observed Leslie gaping and commenting to two young girls at Freedom and heard him preach there, weeping and saying how beautiful "our women are with their scrubbed faces." I didn't know what was wrong with him then, but it was so off.
I didn't know Sam very well, thankfully. He knew my whole family, and I think my mom professed under him, but he was cold towards me.
Please keep recording, Jared. It's helpful for us and I suspect for you to unravel all this.
Jared, you do have very large, elephant sized "canoes". This is proof. Topsy turvy world in 2x2 culture! Barry and Ray and every other overseer's overseer is, like Ted Harris said so bluntly, they either are predators/perpetrators or they are protecting one. The emotional blackmail is serious. We should all be much angrier than we are. Thank you for processing out loud. You are brave! I hope you feel the affirmation and ovation from on high.
Jared, I was waiting for you to post this particular episode after you mentioned you would be telling the story. I needed this. After some very uncomfortable interactions with this man as an older teenage girl and a conversation with him as a married 20-something woman, the things you've shared here just confirm what my gut always knew back then and my hindsight has been confirming. He always injected such emotion into his speaking, and one time, in particular, I have never forgotten because it really hit me as a bit eerie/strange at the time. He ended his sermon at Malcom convention one year saying, "Women have such power (lots of emotion was put into this statement with the typical wavering voice), but I don't have time to go into that right now." Now it almost seems like he was intent on taking any perceived power from them... Makes me cringe. It was a grand, manipulative act on his part and so very, very sick. I am so sorry you had to spend so many of your days in that kind of presence.
There aren’t words to convey my level of appreciation for your vulnerability in sharing these painful things. As one of those family members you mention, I’m fully aware of the vacuum pull into his admiration society even within our family, and I deeply regret any of the times I claimed him as a relative and it might have produced the visceral reaction for others that you describe — I’m learning to be kind to my mind about that regret. I also was a recipient of his inappropriate comments sandwiched between “spiritual” messages. I appreciate that even in sharing these difficult things you are intentional to share with consideration of all the angles, and that truly speaks to your maturity in processing these things. My heart continues to break for the ripples of unkindness that continue to spread from proud small-minded men. Thank you for being a courageous, rational voice of honesty and I sincerely hope for your continued healing journey in all of this.
Jared, I'm crying by the end of this for you… the insight into the way young workers are treated; for your courage in leaving and the way you are speaking truth…. that Leslie White’s ministry was the biggest abomination in the world. And I'm not even from the US! Your words absolutely resonate with truth and power. May your healing continue apace and may your words keep flowing.
I was around Leslie at 18, and my gut response was also that something was unsettling and off about him. But I interpreted that reaction as something being wrong with me, as I saw him revered by so many. It was the groomed community that enabled this monster, a lesson many still don’t understand. This is why more Leslies will run wild going forward in this community, and why sharing your experience is so crucial.
I think I was at the same convention you would have been at when Leslie was a guest at Saginaw. I had exactly the same reaction. I can still feel my disgust just listening to him as a teenager. I remember feeling like his emotions were completely disingenuous while he was speaking…
Andrew Abernathy, George Walker, Sam, Barry, Leslie; all of these men you've mentioned, and more, were made in the Northeast. Then, they left the region to be upheld as paragons of wisdom and righteousness to 2x2 members there and elsewhere. They would further build those legends to grow in stature and authority in the cult, all of them eventually "anointed" as overseers. Sometimes, I wonder if the region bears some responsibility for building these men into what they would eventually become.
Listening to your memory of being paired with Leslie, I pictured the knots you tied yourself into to recover from a severe mental health episode and try to reenter preaching. All of the above while contorting to maintain integrity and preserve your testimony of a right spirit by not "spoiling a brother's testimony." It is all so heavy. The silence, partial information, misinformation and secrecy around Leslie's antics, all while many members, myself included, were snowed by his performances and thinking the world of him couldn't help but be enraging and sickening at once. Barry, Ray and others could have been straight with the whole church and stood this predator down while giving a full account of what he did. They didn't to maintain a pristine image and keep their reliable, reloadable bullet chambered to fire when needed and keep butts in the seats.
The celebrity you describe around his name popping up on a convention speaking list was real and couldn't have been any more intense than in the Northeast, especially as he was homegrown talent. People would file into the meeting shed with rabid anticipation for his "message." I remember him being an animated and dynamic orator, especially in contrast to the usually droll, partially mumbled, mostly monotone mimicked 'humble shepherd' cadences of the early Irish preachers that most preachers after them would pattern their deliveries on.
I can still hear him giving versions of that performative sermon of King David you mentioned. It usually focused on how David, a man who supposedly was inspired by God's heart, sent Uriah the Hittite to get killed at war so he could keep nailing his wife Bathsheba. "There's old Uriah, he's out there in the heat of battle (voice begins pitifully wavering), and David is back in the castle. This was a time when kings would lead their men into battle, but he wasn't in the place he should have been, where God wanted him. And he knew! He knew!! (voice wavers even more noticeably but gains volume, and eyes start to dampen) He set poor Uriah the Hittite to be killed just so he could have his wife. Ohh poor Uriahhh, (He breaks out into full blubber now, grabbing a hankie, wiping his tear-filled eyes and blowing his nose noisily, the honk of it clearly picked up by the microphone) Boooohhooohhoohoohoohoooo!!!"
You nailed it towards the end of the episode: his ability to preach and captivate the members made him more valuable to cult leadership than any criminal sexual acts could make him invaluable. To this day, my dad still recounts how Leslie cried over Uriah, fully believing that it was because old Les was broken up over his treachery. Little did he, or most of the rest of us, know back then that not only was it performative, it was telling. You may be right that he believed the performance was his attempt at absolution but I think it could be something else. A woman told me similar accounts as those in your area told you about his unaccompanied visits to married women's homes while they were alone. She also told me of an inappropriate visit comment he made. The wife at one home volunteered that after a while you're not newlyweds, and her husband probably wasn't as inclined to chase after her like when they first got together. Leslie replied, "If I were married to you, I'd make love to you every day!!"
You see, I don't think the testimony was an attempt at absolution. He's twisted, sick and manipulative. I think in some strange way he got a kick out of telling a sermon that was essentially a veiled confession to every man in the tent: "I've got my eyes on your wives and lots of them look so tempting to me. If it were up to me I'd get lots of you out of the way permanently so I could have them to myself, just like David did to Uriah to get Bathsheba. However, I can't do that and maintain my position, so I'll do the next best thing: take turns waiting for each of you to disappear in the heat of battle at your job and make a play for them then." I think he drew twisted glee from giving an autobiographical sermon of sorts, confessing to those men his lust for their wives, knowing that all the while they're listening to it and thinking God himself is sending the message to feed their souls.
These recordings are riveting and I'm looking forward to the next one.
As always, thanks for following along and for what your comments add to the discussion! It's a very plausible theory, his actions would seem to confirm it. The only thing I should have ever known of him was that he got kicked out long before I started
Jared, holding you tenderly. The pain of your experience is palpable. I appreciate that you are telling your story without equivocation. It is an honor to hear and hold your story in honor and give it dignity. You made a statement that so resonates with me when you referenced the way this system has always been, not what it has become or is becoming. Thank you for declaring that truth. The worker church has produced so much pain and trauma going back to very early early days. Jared, I appreciate you.
We were all so convinced they were holy, and that belief is what fed this disgusting sham and kept it going. I don’t really understand how anyone can continue to claim the emperor is clothed.
Keep writing and speaking. It will help you heal. One day I might write my story about them all, but right now I’m busy staying sane, so I can’t afford to think about it too much!
Thank you Jared. I’m glad you are able to find some healing by speaking about your experiences in the cult. I agree the whole system needs to dissolve, I don’t know what those in continue to cling to!
My hubby said Sam shared once he couldn’t believe Leslie could do what he had done. It wasn’t that Sam didn’t believe it happened but that his friend was capable of doing it. Man what a dysfunctional group of people, glad to be out !!
I am glad you got out and are able to tell us what it was really like. People need to know this. I'm sorry you have had so much trauma.
It's disgusting that Barry maintains such a "do no wrong" exterior. Like a fake "kind and gentle" persona, whilewhile rushing aside people's feelings and emotions.
I have observed Leslie gaping and commenting to two young girls at Freedom and heard him preach there, weeping and saying how beautiful "our women are with their scrubbed faces." I didn't know what was wrong with him then, but it was so off.
I didn't know Sam very well, thankfully. He knew my whole family, and I think my mom professed under him, but he was cold towards me.
Please keep recording, Jared. It's helpful for us and I suspect for you to unravel all this.
Jared, you do have very large, elephant sized "canoes". This is proof. Topsy turvy world in 2x2 culture! Barry and Ray and every other overseer's overseer is, like Ted Harris said so bluntly, they either are predators/perpetrators or they are protecting one. The emotional blackmail is serious. We should all be much angrier than we are. Thank you for processing out loud. You are brave! I hope you feel the affirmation and ovation from on high.
Jared, I was waiting for you to post this particular episode after you mentioned you would be telling the story. I needed this. After some very uncomfortable interactions with this man as an older teenage girl and a conversation with him as a married 20-something woman, the things you've shared here just confirm what my gut always knew back then and my hindsight has been confirming. He always injected such emotion into his speaking, and one time, in particular, I have never forgotten because it really hit me as a bit eerie/strange at the time. He ended his sermon at Malcom convention one year saying, "Women have such power (lots of emotion was put into this statement with the typical wavering voice), but I don't have time to go into that right now." Now it almost seems like he was intent on taking any perceived power from them... Makes me cringe. It was a grand, manipulative act on his part and so very, very sick. I am so sorry you had to spend so many of your days in that kind of presence.
So many stories like yours...
Thank you Melissa
There aren’t words to convey my level of appreciation for your vulnerability in sharing these painful things. As one of those family members you mention, I’m fully aware of the vacuum pull into his admiration society even within our family, and I deeply regret any of the times I claimed him as a relative and it might have produced the visceral reaction for others that you describe — I’m learning to be kind to my mind about that regret. I also was a recipient of his inappropriate comments sandwiched between “spiritual” messages. I appreciate that even in sharing these difficult things you are intentional to share with consideration of all the angles, and that truly speaks to your maturity in processing these things. My heart continues to break for the ripples of unkindness that continue to spread from proud small-minded men. Thank you for being a courageous, rational voice of honesty and I sincerely hope for your continued healing journey in all of this.
Thank you Jami ❤️
Jared, I'm crying by the end of this for you… the insight into the way young workers are treated; for your courage in leaving and the way you are speaking truth…. that Leslie White’s ministry was the biggest abomination in the world. And I'm not even from the US! Your words absolutely resonate with truth and power. May your healing continue apace and may your words keep flowing.
Thank you Renee! ❤️
I was around Leslie at 18, and my gut response was also that something was unsettling and off about him. But I interpreted that reaction as something being wrong with me, as I saw him revered by so many. It was the groomed community that enabled this monster, a lesson many still don’t understand. This is why more Leslies will run wild going forward in this community, and why sharing your experience is so crucial.
I think I was at the same convention you would have been at when Leslie was a guest at Saginaw. I had exactly the same reaction. I can still feel my disgust just listening to him as a teenager. I remember feeling like his emotions were completely disingenuous while he was speaking…
Ugh 💔 so many infuriating things here and so necessary to call these men what they truly are.
Andrew Abernathy, George Walker, Sam, Barry, Leslie; all of these men you've mentioned, and more, were made in the Northeast. Then, they left the region to be upheld as paragons of wisdom and righteousness to 2x2 members there and elsewhere. They would further build those legends to grow in stature and authority in the cult, all of them eventually "anointed" as overseers. Sometimes, I wonder if the region bears some responsibility for building these men into what they would eventually become.
Listening to your memory of being paired with Leslie, I pictured the knots you tied yourself into to recover from a severe mental health episode and try to reenter preaching. All of the above while contorting to maintain integrity and preserve your testimony of a right spirit by not "spoiling a brother's testimony." It is all so heavy. The silence, partial information, misinformation and secrecy around Leslie's antics, all while many members, myself included, were snowed by his performances and thinking the world of him couldn't help but be enraging and sickening at once. Barry, Ray and others could have been straight with the whole church and stood this predator down while giving a full account of what he did. They didn't to maintain a pristine image and keep their reliable, reloadable bullet chambered to fire when needed and keep butts in the seats.
The celebrity you describe around his name popping up on a convention speaking list was real and couldn't have been any more intense than in the Northeast, especially as he was homegrown talent. People would file into the meeting shed with rabid anticipation for his "message." I remember him being an animated and dynamic orator, especially in contrast to the usually droll, partially mumbled, mostly monotone mimicked 'humble shepherd' cadences of the early Irish preachers that most preachers after them would pattern their deliveries on.
I can still hear him giving versions of that performative sermon of King David you mentioned. It usually focused on how David, a man who supposedly was inspired by God's heart, sent Uriah the Hittite to get killed at war so he could keep nailing his wife Bathsheba. "There's old Uriah, he's out there in the heat of battle (voice begins pitifully wavering), and David is back in the castle. This was a time when kings would lead their men into battle, but he wasn't in the place he should have been, where God wanted him. And he knew! He knew!! (voice wavers even more noticeably but gains volume, and eyes start to dampen) He set poor Uriah the Hittite to be killed just so he could have his wife. Ohh poor Uriahhh, (He breaks out into full blubber now, grabbing a hankie, wiping his tear-filled eyes and blowing his nose noisily, the honk of it clearly picked up by the microphone) Boooohhooohhoohoohoohoooo!!!"
You nailed it towards the end of the episode: his ability to preach and captivate the members made him more valuable to cult leadership than any criminal sexual acts could make him invaluable. To this day, my dad still recounts how Leslie cried over Uriah, fully believing that it was because old Les was broken up over his treachery. Little did he, or most of the rest of us, know back then that not only was it performative, it was telling. You may be right that he believed the performance was his attempt at absolution but I think it could be something else. A woman told me similar accounts as those in your area told you about his unaccompanied visits to married women's homes while they were alone. She also told me of an inappropriate visit comment he made. The wife at one home volunteered that after a while you're not newlyweds, and her husband probably wasn't as inclined to chase after her like when they first got together. Leslie replied, "If I were married to you, I'd make love to you every day!!"
You see, I don't think the testimony was an attempt at absolution. He's twisted, sick and manipulative. I think in some strange way he got a kick out of telling a sermon that was essentially a veiled confession to every man in the tent: "I've got my eyes on your wives and lots of them look so tempting to me. If it were up to me I'd get lots of you out of the way permanently so I could have them to myself, just like David did to Uriah to get Bathsheba. However, I can't do that and maintain my position, so I'll do the next best thing: take turns waiting for each of you to disappear in the heat of battle at your job and make a play for them then." I think he drew twisted glee from giving an autobiographical sermon of sorts, confessing to those men his lust for their wives, knowing that all the while they're listening to it and thinking God himself is sending the message to feed their souls.
These recordings are riveting and I'm looking forward to the next one.
As always, thanks for following along and for what your comments add to the discussion! It's a very plausible theory, his actions would seem to confirm it. The only thing I should have ever known of him was that he got kicked out long before I started
I look forward to your episodes. Wow. So insightful. It just makes me so sick to hear about all of the top dogs. Your life could be a movie.
It feels like a mythological tale sometimes. Literally into the bowels of hell and back
Jared, holding you tenderly. The pain of your experience is palpable. I appreciate that you are telling your story without equivocation. It is an honor to hear and hold your story in honor and give it dignity. You made a statement that so resonates with me when you referenced the way this system has always been, not what it has become or is becoming. Thank you for declaring that truth. The worker church has produced so much pain and trauma going back to very early early days. Jared, I appreciate you.
Thank you Bernitta, I appreciate you!
We were all so convinced they were holy, and that belief is what fed this disgusting sham and kept it going. I don’t really understand how anyone can continue to claim the emperor is clothed.
Keep writing and speaking. It will help you heal. One day I might write my story about them all, but right now I’m busy staying sane, so I can’t afford to think about it too much!
I understand that too!
Thanks for speaking the truth. It's powerful. It tears at my heart strings.
Thanks Jared, very insightful. I'm so sorry for what you endured
Thank you so much ,Jared , for showing your factual glimpse through the curtain of the façade of those that don’t deserve to be called ministers!
Thank you Jared. I’m glad you are able to find some healing by speaking about your experiences in the cult. I agree the whole system needs to dissolve, I don’t know what those in continue to cling to!
My hubby said Sam shared once he couldn’t believe Leslie could do what he had done. It wasn’t that Sam didn’t believe it happened but that his friend was capable of doing it. Man what a dysfunctional group of people, glad to be out !!